Template talk:Infobox Greek Dimos

Instructions
This infobox is to be used for Greek towns, cities, municipalities, and villages. This infobox uses features from Infobox City, Infobox_German_Location, and French_commune.

Features

 * One location map, which eliminates the need for individual location maps. Just plug in the correct latitude and longitude coordinates and the red dot will show the location of the city.
 * Population density is automatically calculated just by entering population and area into the correct fields. This eliminates the need for seperate fields.
 * Area, Population density, and Elevation (min & max) are automatically displayed in both Metric and Imperial (American) units. This eliminates the needs of multiple fields just to show the same information.
 * Caption Skyline appears when you place the mouse over the image, as goes the same for Seal and Flag of the city.
 * Village and Municipality Fields are just for villages and municipality. If a city itself is a municipality like Athens, there is no need to have both.

This is an example of what the Infobox will look like with the fields filled in.

Comments
Hi Greco, some comments on your new infobox for Greek places:
 * for a better layout you can get some ideas from Template:Infobox German Location, the new infobox in development for German places.
 * population density is calculated automatically in Infobox German Location
 * same for metric to imperial units conversions
 * I think the text in the left column shouldn't be bold
 * skyline picture is a good idea
 * I think some items are not necessary in an infobox:
 * full name of a municipality (Dimos Athinaion (Δήμος Αθηναίων) in this example)
 * city motto and nickname
 * map caption: you get a description if you move the pointer over the map.
 * region
 * province: this is a rather vague administrative unit IMO, I've never seen a complete list of provinces. If you think this is necessary, place it under prefecture, as it's a subdivision of prefectures.
 * municipality/community: this is only useful if the box is about a place that is part of a municipality or community, e.g. Dimitra, Elis.
 * I'm not so in favour of all the different populations and areas (city proper, urban area, metropolitan area), Which one is the municipality population/area?
 * All the population information is on www.statistics.gr, I'm not sure about areas (www.ypes.gr?). You might make that an automatic link.

Keep up the good work! Markussep 10:42, 14 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the comments Markussep. I will try to improve the infobox based on them. El Greco 14:16, 15 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Some points for improvement: I don't think we should show the seconds of the coordinates, because it implies too much precision. For instance for Athens: the present coordinates 37°58'47"N 23°43'46"E point to Evripidou street, but the Parthenon is already at 37°58'18"N 23°43'31"E, and the Larisa train station at 37°59'32"N 23°43'16"E. The elevation figures would fit on one line, like 70-277 m (230-909 ft). Same for time zone and daylight saving time. There's something wrong with the population years, they show up on a new line, left column. Markussep 11:07, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I understand what you mean with the coordinates. See, I thought/assumed that 37°58'47"N 23°43'46"E pointed to the city hall of Athens. I mean, I found those coordinates from gto.gr so I figured they were the center of the city, but I'll just make them show just degree and minute. I fixed the population year. It'll will appear at the top of the Population Statistics Header. I'll work on putting the population figures on one line. Do you think you could help me fix the flag and seal display, cause I can't understand why one won't display with the other? El Greco 19:32, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * What's the problem with the seal and flag? I see the seal twice, but the same file is given at city_seal and city_flag. BTW do all or most cities in Greece have both a seal and a flag, or are there more that have only a flag or a seal? Markussep 21:21, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The problem is that I can't show one with out the other. Meaning that if I just have a seal, it won't appear without there needing to be image for a flag. It won't show just one if I don't have both. Do you understand what I'm saying now? I added the same seal for both the city_seal and city_flag just so it would show, because as I previously had it, which was just the city seal, it would not show. From what I can gather most (older and maybe newer) Greek cities do have some sort of seal, they might be on their cities websites or might not. What I'm not sure of is whether Greek cities have a flag. I know Athens does, but don't know who else. El Greco 21:44, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * You could try something like [[Image:sin escudo.png]] for towns for which no seal or flag image is available, and leave the whole line out if both are absent, play with #if, and center the seal or flag, if only one is present. If it still doesn't work, let me know, I'll ask the people working on the German infobox. Markussep 22:22, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Could you, if it's not too much trouble, ask the people working on the German infobox, to help fix that flag/seal problem? I tried playing around with #if, but it still stayed the same. I tried telling it center align, getting rid of the top border, splitting and making them 2 seperate #if's but nothing worked. I did get the one image to show without the other, but it still wouldn't center. El Greco 17:41, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I think I've done the trick, it aligns single images (only flag or only seal) in the center. When both are there, it shows up a bit left of center though. Markussep 18:55, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you! It looks much better now. I might try playing with it to see if it can center with both images, if not I'll leave it the way it is. It's not big deal now, especially since it will center one image. Once again, thank you! El Greco 01:42, 23 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I've edited the infobox to make it look like I want it to. If you think I removed too much, let me know. There's one thing I'm not sure about: the difference between the urban area and the metropolitan area. What's the difference between those two, e.g. for Athens, and wouldn't it be better to leave one of them out? Markussep 13:22, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Just to let you know, I got rid of the Urban Population Category and decided to keep the city and Metropolitan category instead. I also deleted some excess text, that wasn't really doing anything, and I finally got rid of that spacing that was on the right side of the infobox that made it look awkward. Now all we need to do and figure out why that Location map isn't working properly. El Greco 02:43, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

New dot-on-a-map template
When building Infobox German Location, it was necessary to bring over the Lageplan template from the German wiki to display the map with the location dot. Infobox Town GR and the new Infobox Greek Dimos are the only other templates on the English wiki that use Lageplan. Only recently, I discovered a template on the English wiki that already does this job: Location map. The people behind this template have already made up a series of settings to cover different locations (see template page for list), including Germany and Greece. The Location Map template has already been integrated into a number of templates such as Infobox_Swiss_town, Infobox_London_place and will probably soon be part of Infobox City. This makes the Lageplan template almost redundant, and I am thinking of removing it from the German infobox and, if it is removed from the Greek one, disabling it altogether. Location map has a number of new cool features (optional label text, a bit more user-friendly than Lageplan) but there are some features of Lageplan that it does not have (mouseover-text for the dot, error map if bad co-ordinates are given). Give it a try and if you decide to use it instead of Lageplan, please let me know. - 52 Pickup 16:46, 28 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I was one step ahead of you, and you were one stop ahead of me. I was planning on using that map of Greece from Location map, but have asked ChrisO to adjust that map for me, to include the prefecture outlines. Since it seems much more as you say user-friendly and will probably be used in Infobox City, I'll probably consider using it as well. Thanks for the heads up! El Greco 21:14, 28 January 2007 (UTC)


 * You could also use the map image currently used in Infobox Town GR and Infobox Greek Dimos: Image:Prefectures Greece grey.png. The data you need for the Location map template (upper, lower, left and right coordinates) are in the Lageplan calculations: 41.78-34.93 N, 19.7-28.3 E. I don't like the big dot though, can we change that? Markussep 10:28, 2 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Can either of you two help me get the coordinates right for Location Map ( Click on the Greece (with Prefectures) link)? I tried those 41.78-34.93 N, 19.7-28.3 E and they don't seem to work. I've been playing around with the coordinates but it doesn't seem to want to position the dot in the correct place. For example, I keep trying to get it in the correct location of Athens, but it's either too left, too right, too north, or too south. Any ideas how to fix this? El Greco 14:57, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The coordinates I gave were for Image:Prefectures Greece grey.png, the new picture shows a wider view. I'll calculate the coordinates for the new picture later today. Markussep 17:25, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Does it work now, or does is still need tweaking? El Greco 18:37, 17 February 2007 (UTC)


 * It's OK now, I made a simple mistake with the minutes (- instead of +). I'll check whether it needs minor adjustments. There seems to be something wrong with the width of the picture. I gave 19 EL and 30 EL as the left and right edges, but when I enter those coordinates in the template, the dot shows up off the map. Strange... Markussep 19:22, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
 * With some tweaks it shows up OK now in my browser. Markussep 19:28, 17 February 2007 (UTC)


 * It still shows up too east of where the red dot should be on my browser (IE6). I tried tweaking all the numbers, but nothing seems to work. I couldn't get the red dot to move west, and it kept frustrating me. I returned the numbers back to what you originally had. If I could understand what the variable in the equation meant and how they responded to changing them, I might be able to figure this out. Isn't there some way you can put the image in some program, and have it give you the Lat and Lon coordinates (top/bottom & left/right)? El Greco 01:36, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm really puzzled about this. Here at work I have IE6, and it doesn't show the right location, while at home (IE7) it was OK. I checked some other articles where the Location map template is used (Dublin, Opatija, Montreux), and they're all OK, so it must be something about the Greek map. The variables in the equations within our infobox are not so complicated (divide the minutes by 60 and add them to the degrees), but the Location map template code is too complicated for me. The way I determined the edges of the map was getting the x,y coordinates of known points on the map in a picture editing program (I used the west point of Corfu, the northeast point of Rhodes and a cape on Crete), and calculating the edges (x=0 and 800, y=0 and 700) by extrapolation from the latitude and longitude of the known points. I tried the old Location map Greece, but that gives the same problem. If all else fails, I'll try the Lageplan template again (with the new map). Markussep 09:02, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


 * At least the Lageplan template still works, the positions are OK now. I suggest we leave it like this. If you want to make the map bigger or smaller, you have to adjust the mapsize_x and mapsize_y proportionally. Markussep 15:19, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Still, don't like Lageplan though, Now we have to come up with a second map for "no coordinates". There has got to be a reason why, location map isn't working properly. Does the actual map (Greece dark perfrectures) been adjusted to the correct coordinates. Because they first time I tried getting the map to work I played around with the actual map, is that maybe the problem? El Greco 17:10, 22 February 2007 (UTC)


 * One last check: where is the dot on User:Markussep/Luxembourg (the title is random) in your browser? It's correct (maybe a bit too far south) in mine (IE7). BTW I liked my old heading better, with the town name in the top line, see for instance Tournai, Cologne, Dublin, Ithaca, New York. The flag can move to the "Country" line, like in the Belgian and German infoboxes. Markussep 19:02, 22 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The dot appears just alittle to the east (Just a very, very small distance to the east) of where the city of Rhodes should be on the island of Rhodes. I changed the heading back because the Infobox French commune use to have the flag at the bottom all by itself, see Paris, and I liked how it was and decided to place it on top instead of on the bottom. El Greco 01:36, 23 February 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by El Greco (talk • contribs) 01:35, 23 February 2007 (UTC).


 * OK, that means that Location map works now. I'll put it back on. Markussep 15:50, 23 February 2007 (UTC) Hmmmm, it doesn't work, that's strange. I'll put it back to Lageplan, tell me what you don't like about it and I'll see if I can fix that. About the heading, I think the Belgian and German infoboxes look better than the French one (which BTW also has the city name in the top line). Markussep 16:09, 23 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Location map really seems to work now, I found a silly mistake (250px instead of 250). I also made another map with question mark for when no coordinates are given. Urban/metro OK. Next I'll show you what I have in mind for the heading. Markussep 10:45, 24 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Location map looks good now. I tried a few cities and it seems to be working properly now. It's still a little off though, but it's fine the way it is. I like that no coordinates map, good idea. I see you changed the heading and moved that flag down, is there anything else you are going to do? El Greco 01:16, 25 February 2007 (UTC)


 * No, I'm happy with the infobox as it is now. I think the template is ready for launch! Markussep 09:38, 25 February 2007 (UTC) Actually, one final thing, I'm cutting the regions out of the box, since they're often the same as the periphery, and have no official government status (anymore). Markussep 17:36, 25 February 2007 (UTC)


 * On User:Markussep/Luxembourg I copied the present infobox for Ioannina and only replaced the template name and deleted one comma. Works OK, but I think the "Location" line looks silly if there are no pictures above it (which will be the case for most of the cities at least for now). I think I'll replace it with dividers below the skyline and the seal/flag images (only shown if there are images). Markussep 18:51, 26 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I like that location title. It gives the inofobox some organization and less overall conformity (one giant blob of stuff). I'm changing it back. It's basically there to split the Skyline Image with the Map. It basically is a divider in it's own right. El Greco 01:25, 27 February 2007 (UTC)


 * OK, I didn't succeed in creating nice dividers anyway. I wouldn't put the link to the list of municipalities (or any other) on the city name, I think that's better on "Municipality" (under population statistics), instead of the link to Demographics of Greece. Markussep 08:24, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I changed the template so that if image_map is provided, it will be displayed instead of the generic dot-map. image_map was used in Template:Infobox Town GR. -- geraki 15:16, 9 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not so happy with this new feature. My objection is that, e.g. in the article about Arnaia, you have to be familiar with the shape of Chalkidiki to know what you see. The location on a map of Greece is much more useful IMO to the average Wikipedia reader. I would suggest to undo this feature. Markussep 17:10, 9 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Right.......flipping back between the new map and old map is useless. First of all a change like that should be discussed here first and then changed for the infobox. Now unless what Geraki is trying to do is get a second map to show upclose the city being specified, than I'm sure something can be worked out. The whole point of the main map is to show where a city is with respect to Greece. Now if a smaller more specific map is needed to show lets say a suburb of Athens, because that whole Attica region is crowded then, we could work out as previously stated, a second map to show this area much better. And one more thing: the whole point of having one main map was to eliminate the need for an infinite amount of smaller maps that can only be used in one respect, while the main map can be used universally. User: (talk • contribs) 20:17, 9 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Of course nothing needs to be discussed before implemented; this contradicts to WP:BOLD. Discussion is needed only when objections arise.
 * We are not talking about new and old maps here, but a map of Greece and maps specifically made for each municipality. I disagree that a red dot on the map of Greece is more useful to a reader: at best situations it shows that the municipality is somewhere in a prefecture. Remember that when we talk about Greek municipalities (Dimos) in most cases we talk about administrative areas of several thousand square kilometers, including several villages and not just a single town. Moreover, if the reader is not aware where Chalkidiki is, then the projection on a full map of Greece is equally unuseful: it just shows that it is somewhere in north Greece. I believe that the use of the main Greece map is only good for articles where we don't have a specific map yet.
 * The image_map was used in the template before the appearance of the red-dot map. The fact that it was actually used in municipalites of Chania prefecture, was disregarded.
 * Examples:
 * Example 1: Kandanos current version (red dot) older version (specific map)


 * Example 2: Arnaia


 * It is also clear that for small neighbouring municipalities the dots would overlap. Compare Kryonerida, Georgioupoli (and many others). geraki  15:20, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I would agree with geraki on this one. Why don't we do something like Infobox U.S. County where both the specific location in the state and where it's located in the US are highlighted? For example: Miami-Dade County, Florida. -- Kimon talk 15:28, 10 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Showing both maps would be a nice solution IMO, see also Infobox Belgium Municipality and examples like Tournai and Alken. To me as non-Greek (but with some notion of Greek geography) the information that Arnaia is somewhere in northern Greece is useful, and a lot more so than a detailed map. What I would like more in the detailed map is the names of the neighbouring municipalities. Markussep 17:26, 10 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Now a second map is warranted for only closely packed cities, (i.e. Athens, Thessaloniki). What's the point of showing ever little city/village/town in Greece? Some of these city pages have more categorical links to wikipedia related stuff than they do text about the city at hand. Take a look at Alyzia or Thermo. A Greek Dimos is a city hence Dimos..........City/Municipality of some Greek city. A prefecture or periphery is the administrative area that spans several thousand kilometers. Take Athens, for example. Dimos Athinaion is only 39km² but the Athens Prefecture is 89km². That's not several thousand kilometers at all. Now the Periphery of Attica is (3,808km²). Look at the Athens page, scroll down to Government section and see how it's set up. You've got a map of the prefecture and periphery the city is in and a map of the city itself. What else do you need? If we added a second map to the template, it would be even larger and the second map would be in compliment with the map of Greece, not a substitute (meaning it's either both or just the map of Greece). User: (talk • contribs) 18:13, 10 May 2007 (UTC)


 * What you miss here is than since 1997 and the Kapodistrias Plan, a greek Dimos/Municipality is not exclusively a city. Most municipalities consist of several villages with no more than 2000 population each. From 1997 the equations city=municipality, village=community are not valid, since the old communities were merged to greater municipalities. So how can you represent a municipality containing 10-15 villages with a single dot? Your examples are perfect, Alyzia and Thermo are not cities. There isn't any city or village with the name Alyzia. It is the name of the municipality containing 5 villages (Kandyla, Archontohori, Varnaka, Mytikas, Panagoula). On the other side there is a village called Thermo (population 1.898) which is the bigest village and seat of the Thermo municipality which contains 23 villages. 23 villages are not a city. And the fact that Aetolia-Acarnania contains 29 municipalities does not mean it contains 29 cities or even towns. It contains 2 cities, 9 towns, and dozens of villages. A nice example is Panaitoliko where there isn't any city or village named as such, and the total population of the six villages it is consisted of is just 1,853 (not even the population of a town). There is no city Panaitoliko, only an administrative entity which is a Dimos. So, would you represent Greece as a red dot on the world map? Of course not. Why would you do it to a Dimos? -- geraki 23:15, 16 May 2007 (UTC)


 * But see, even those examples that you give are small villages that have been merged to function as one for the case of simplicity. Take a larger city, like Athens or Thessaloniki, or Patras. Dimos in their case means the city itself. They are not split into municipalities of 2,000 people or less. Some if not most articles, that I have seen show for example the city (let's say Alyzia) also list the municipalities within Alyzia. Now granted, none of those listed municipalities have their own article. Is an article warranted for a village in which most people know nothing about, and the only possible thing to represent it will be a map? Now in the case of Panaitoliko, what do you want to be done? Make 2 new infoboxes to represent either a village or municipality? For the sake of simplicity, they should all be treated as towns/cities whether they infact are or are not. Why wouldn't you represent Greece as a dot(or color in all of Greece) on a map? You're talking about Greece, not about what's inside of it(cities, islands, geography). The only thing I can suggest is that we put a disclaimer in the intro of those articles in which are not cities and state they are governing bodies of a group of villages. (Note: If I'm coming off as a little tense or not understanding, that was not my intention. I'm getting packed to go on vacation to Hellas, and well it's the final hours and I just want to get all the non-related vacation stuff done (including wiki). Here's a thought I just had. Why don't we add that second map, if you feel it's nescessary (to show villages/municipalities). BUT.......... add the map as a drop down map that doesn't really add any extra length to the infobox itself. It's like those tags in the talk page that you click on the link show to see the rest of it. Can that be down if you want to make a compromise between showing the villages and municipalities (Dimos)? This is all pending on if something like that can be done. User: (talk • contribs) 00:37, 17 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm afraid you don't understand. Dimos in no case means city. Athens and Thessaloniki are cities, but they do not consist one municipality but more. On the other hand it's clear that you are wrong about Alyzia: Alyzia does not contain any municipality. Alyzia IS a municipality. What is listed there are villages. No city, no town, only villages.
 * Thessaloniki = 1 city = 16 municipalities
 * Alyzia = 5 villages = 1 municipality
 * Panaitoliko = 23 villages = 1 municipality
 * There is no connection of city with a greek municipality/dimos as an administrative division, in fact it is a rare thing for a municipality/dimos to represent only one city. Municipality and Community are legal terms for local governments so they must be treated in the same way they are treated by the government. There is no concept and legal term city or village in Greece which is are names for some sizes of settlements. The borders and area of municipalities are more extent than the borders of the settlements it contains. There isn't any reason to treat a group of ten greek villages the same way you would treat a german or british city. The term municipality derives from the pre-1997 administrative division, but now it represents more something like a county (an administrative division that was cancelled). If it was a city, we would have only one article. But in this case, for some municipalities probably we can have an article for the whole municipality and seperate article(s) for the most important and historical villages (which would had their own articles if we had created wikipedia ten years ago, as they were independent communities). I'd like you to read Communities and Municipalities of Greece to help you clear these things. An example from there: "Law 2539 in 1997, named “Ioannis Kapodistrias,” took 441 municipalities and the 5382 communities and merged them into 900 municipalities and 133 communities." Of course this does not mean that by law Greece had 441 cities and 5382 villages before, and 900 cities and 133 villages after. The cities and villages are still where they were, the only thing changed was the administrative division (municipalities and communities).  -- geraki  10:12, 21 May 2007 (UTC)


 * This whole essay has nothing to do with the usefullness of the maps for the average reader. I suggest you show the detail map in the article body, not in the infobox. Markussep Talk 13:44, 1 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I suggest to read it first. The usefullness is subjective, I find more useful to show the area of the administrative division within the next layer of administration (that is Dimos within Nomos) than to show where approximately is within the country [the next third layer of administration (Dimos → Nomos → Periphery → Greece)]. As I saw Lithuanian municipalities is something equivalent, so compare Trakai district municipality to the town of Trakai, which is only a part of the municipality. US counties are also very similar to greek municipalities (although bigger), and all have a map of their area in the infobox. geraki

Conversion from Infobox Town GR to Infobox Greek Dimos
Currently the Infobox Town GR is used in over 400 articles. In order to make the transition towards the new Infobox Greek Dimos as easy as possible, I checked the correspondences between the two templates, wrt used fields:

used in both templates (if the field name is different, the name in Town GR is between brackets): only used in Infobox Greek Dimos: only used in Infobox Town GR:
 * name, native_name (name_local), city_seal (img_coa), lat_deg, lat_min, lon_deg, lon_min, periphery (periph), prefecture (prefec), mayor, as_of (population_as_of), city_pop (population), area_city (area), metro_pop (population_metro), area_metro, postal_code, dialing_code (area_code), licence_plate (licence), website
 * image_skyline, image_skyline_size, caption_skyline, city_flag, districts, party, since, elevation_min, elevation_max
 * flag_reg, image_map, img_coa_legend, province, population_ref, pop_dens, elevation, lat_hem, lon_hem

I see no conflicting fields, and if we copy the field names from the old infobox for the first group, conversion should go pretty easy. A point of attention is the thousands separators (commas) in the population numbers, they have to be removed because they cause errors in the population density calculation. As far as I know, only Athens, Patras and Thessaloniki had seal images in the old infobox, so I'll leave that one as is. Markussep 18:13, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

These are the new fields: |image_skyline     = |caption_skyline   = |city_flag         = |city_seal         = |districts         = |party             = |since             = |elevation_min     = |elevation_max     =


 * So, name_local is fine, but prefec should just be prefecture and periph --> periphery, I know it might be easier when we start implementing the Infobox, but you might as well just write out the entire field. I also changed licence to license. Removing the commas is the easy part!! El Greco 22:37, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Licence vs. License is just British vs. American English. You realise that you have to change the field names prefec, periph and licence of all the 400+ old infoboxes? I think it's a lot of useless work, it's invisible for the reader anyway. Unless you can find a bot to do it. Markussep 17:31, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * But aren't you just copying and pasting the infobox fields though? That's what I plan on doing by copying the Athens one used on this page, and filling in the correct fields that correspond to each city. I don't see how that will take longer than just leaving the fields as they already are. Are you just planning on editing each individual field instead of just pasting the new infobox? I see how editing each entire field can be time consuming, but just copying and pasting the infobox seems a lot easier and quicker. And that Licence thing, I knew something was familiar about it, but I couldn't figure out what (it doesn't matter to me now whether or not the spelling is British vs. English now). El Greco 00:30, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * No, I change the first line of the existing infobox to Infobox Greek Dimos, remove the comma in the population figure(s), and add the new fields. That way I don't have to copy/paste the data. Markussep 14:00, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Since I don't like unnecessary extra work, I'll revert it. I'm going to prepare the infobox for launch, and announce it at Wikiproject Greece. Markussep 18:27, 16 March 2007 (UTC)


 * If you don't feel like doing all that little work, I'll update all the 400 Greek Towns then. I still think it is better to write out the entire fields than abbreviating them. I mean, the old Template is going to be obsolete anyway, so you might as well just start from scratch with the fields. Let's see what the members over at Wikiproject Greece say, and we will go from there. I'm also going to stick a esoteric tag on the discussion page, because the way the fields appear in the nowiki box is really annoying. They start at the top of the page leave a huge gap and end below the model infobox. El Greco 00:22, 17 March 2007 (UTC)


 * It looks nice IMO. Congratulations to all of you. I read the discussion above. IMO what is best is what is most functionable and easier in order to update the infoboxes.--Yannismarou 20:19, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Is your effort completed? Shall we include that in the main page of the WP:Greece?--Yannismarou 10:09, 24 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I think we're ready, time to go live. I made one small change: image_skyline size to 250x200px (if the picture's orientation is "landscape", it's 250px wide, if it's "portrait", it's 200px tall). Markussep 11:03, 24 March 2007 (UTC) And another addition: if there is no elevation_min given, the old (central) elevation (the old field "elevation") is taken. Markussep 12:43, 24 March 2007 (UTC)


 * One thing I've noticed, the location makes seems to center to the right, has it's orientation been changed? But everything else looks fine. I've gone ahead and added the infobox to some cities, so you can added to the WP:Greece page Yannismarou. El Greco 15:20, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Seal and flag widths
I changed the seal and flag size to 120x120px, that's easier (and IMO better) than with an extra field. If the picture is taller than wide, it's maximum 120px high. Wikid77, I see what you mean with Corinth, but that's a horrible resolution image anyway, better to remove it altogether. Markussep 12:54, 1 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I went 130 by 130 for seal and flag and 200 by 200 for skyline. Before the skyline was so huge. And that Corinth seal should might as well be placed back in the municipality section, I'm sure there is a way to convert .gif to .png or .jpg for better resolution. El Greco 15:22, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm adding to the template where the skyline image is to have the caption for the image under it as well as a tooltip when the mouse hovers over it. I'm also making it not display anything if a value is not specified. Revert if there is disagreement. -- Kimon talk 14:43, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Thousands punctuation
In English, we use the comma for denoting thousands (200,000) or in SI, sometimes a space (200 000). This infobox will take neither, and only allows the period/decimal/whatever it's called in this context (200.000), which is totally inappropriate for the English Wikipedia. Would someone please correct this? Thanks. Lexicon (talk) 22:21, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Nevermind, I see if I put no punctuation, it puts commas in. Someone had periods in Thessaloniki and it wouldn't take commas or spaces, and I didn't expect it to add commas for me. Lexicon (talk) 22:24, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Unattractive?
No offence to anyone but does anyone else find this info box unattractive? especially compared to its German and Italian counterparts. It seems outdated somewhat and the map looks terrible. Id love to change the map and have it look similar to the German one. --122.49.166.128 01:03, 15 August 2007 (UTC)


 * That's one of the better Greece maps available. Also infoboxs don't need to look alike, they each conform to their specific needs. And by the way, this infobox is a lot more attractive than its predecessor. El Greco (talk · contribs) 16:11, 15 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I am willing to create a new map. I dont think the info box looks that bad but it dosn't look terribly attractive either. Id love to make a few changes to its overall appearance some day --Giorgos 05:05, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * 17-Aug-2007: I have just now added image-size template parameters: an infobox is much more attractive when classic Greek monuments are displayed larger! Try using "size_skyline = 265px" rather than the default 200px width. A larger dramatic picture can make all the difference, hence: magazine covers. -Wikid77 07:12, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Larger is better but not too large. 250px is fine. But remember the infobox is not here for the picutre it is here for the information. Hence the name infobox, and not picturebox. El Greco (talk · contribs) 17:27, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

New size parameters
17-Aug-2007: Similar to other town-infoboxes, I have added the 3 image-size parameters; however, these new size parameters are logically named (what a novel idea): size_skyline, size_flag and size_seal. I am still working to make sure all template documentation is updated for those 3 new size parameters. -Wikid77 07:03, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Those are just too many fields. There is no need for them. They are already built into the infobox itself. You don't really need a flag or seal being bigger than 130px by 130px. Some cities don't even have them, and making them bigger just distorts the whole infobox. The skyline image was 200ps by 200px but that can be enlarged to no greater than 250px. Anything bigger just takes up the whole infobox. It's there mostly for the information. The pictures are a bonus. El Greco (talk · contribs) 17:25, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Now elevation_max optional
17-Aug-2007: Some sites have one elevation, so I have added code to omit blank or zero values for template parameter "elevation_max" (with "elevation_min"). The "Sparta" infobox previously had "210-m (689-0ft)" which now is "Elevation: 210 m (689 ft)" [will also omit "(min-max)" when just one elevation]. Thank God, the changed elevation code works (!). Previously, I had written the year-navigation templates to display years ranging B.C. to A.D. with auto-alignment when " BC " appears on each year. -Wikid77 07:03, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I've been meaning to do that but had no clue how to write the code. El Greco (talk · contribs) 17:20, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Map
Sorry but I cannot stand the map! Is there any way of getting it changed? I did make and trial one earlier but I guess someone didn't like it. How can we go about changing it? --Giorgos 02:46, 18 August 2007 (UTC)


 * What's so bad about it? El Greco (talk · contribs) 13:58, 18 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The thing I do not like about it is that it looks dated. I believe it is the colour scheme. Perhaps it is personal taste but I am sure we can make a much better looking one. Perhaps if more people discussed it with us we would know other opinions too --Giorgos 09:37, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Okay, what kind of color scheme would you like? Obviously the water part has to be blue, but Greece and the surrounding countries can have their colors changed. El Greco (talk · contribs) 16:40, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Why does it have to be blue (the water)? Most countries do not show the water in any specific colour. Id like for the country to be blue with the surrounding waters as white. We don't even need to show the other countries. This is a map about the location of Greek cities within Greece, not about where Greece has borders and seas. Just my 2 cents. --Giorgos 22:37, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

City seals
I've tried to add the seal of the Dimos of Zografou to the article but have had no luck. Can anybody help out?--Damac 17:40, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The image doesn't seem to exist. Did you upload the image, or did you find the link on the Zografou page? El Greco (talk · contribs) 23:24, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Usage September 2007
18-Sep-2007: As of this date, the "Template:Infobox Greek Dimos" is used now in 433 pages (including on 15 talk pages). The older, deprecated "Template:Infobox Town GR" (formerly in over 400 articles) is only used in 16 remaining articles (alpha-sorted):


 * Agios Thomas, Boeotia
 * Anavryti, Laconia
 * Drakovouni
 * Elaiochori, Kavala
 * Evangelismos, Messenia
 * Gyaros
 * Magoula & Mati
 * Polyaigos & Ptolemaida
 * Sklithro, Florina
 * Skoutari, Laconia
 * Souroti
 * Vatheia & Vresthena & Zygos

Only those 16 wiki articles use Template:Infobox_Town_GR, but it is still mentioned on many user or template talk pages. -Wikid77 12:13, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


 * So far this is the updated list
 * Agios Thomas, Boeotia
 * Anavryti, Laconia
 * Drakovouni
 * Elaiochori, Kavala
 * Evangelismos, Messenia
 * Gyaros --> Infobox Greek Isles
 * Magoula & Mati
 * Polyaigos -->Infobox Greek Isles & Ptolemaida
 * Sklithro, Florina
 * Skoutari, Laconia
 * Souroti
 * Vatheia & Vresthena & Zygos

I'm working on the rest. El Greco (talk · contribs) 17:35, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I can't belive I got side tracked on this. It's finally complete. El Greco(talk) 16:35, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Is this infobox suitable for towns and villages that are not dimoi?
Is this infobox suitable for smaller Greek towns and villages that are not dimoi?

User:Pumpie has been very busy in adding his own version of an infobox, which is not based on a template, to large numbers of articles on Greek villages. Here is an example:

The infobox is seriously flawed in my opinion. It mentions provinces, even though these no longer have no legal significance whatsoever. The population data is also out of line.

I've tried replacing this muddled infobox with Template:Infobox Greek Dimos, but have run into problems. Take Chavriata, for example. In the population section, the template states "City Proper". Pumpie's infobox refers to the population of the village and municipal district. Would it be possible to adapt Template:Infobox Greek Dimos to include all this information, or should a special infobox be created for smaller towns and villages?--Damac 21:15, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I renamed it to City Proper after you added the municipality field, so that there would be less confusion. Since municipality and cities/towns are not the same under the Kapodistrias System. You can find the population data for each individual village/town/municipality so I don't see why you have to add the overall municipality population and not just individual city/town. From what I can see the only problem at hand is the population field right? El Greco (talk · contribs) 21:36, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, the only problem at hand is the population data. Like you, I think that each box should simply provide the population figure for the unit in question. However, Pumpie's infobox has a line which shows what percentage of the overall municipality population does the settlement have. I'm not sure if this is necessary.
 * Here are some possible solutions:
 * Replace the current population headings with the adjectives "Village, "Community", "Metropolitan", and "Municipal" (see modified infobox below). Using Argostoli as an example, the first figure would represent the population of the city/town of Argostoli, and the third, Municipal, the figure the population of the Dimos of Argostoli (12,589). The Village variable could be used in the case of a village like Chavriata.
 * or, we create separate articles for separate entities, such as Argostoli (municipality) and Argostoli (city). While this kind of division is done for other countries, take Gotha (town) and Gotha (district) for example, I wouldn't be in favour as it would involve too much work. In addition, unlike Gotha town, Argostoli does not have a separate administrative unit.--Damac 06:33, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

{| class="infobox vcard" width="280px" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" style="font-size: 90%;" !colspan="2" align="center" bgcolor="lightsteelblue" style="font-size: 125%;"| !align="center" colspan="2" style="border-top:solid 2px #ccd2d9; vertical-align:middle;background-color:lightsteelblue;"|Population statistics (as of )






















 * I'll try to put a new more smaller infobox together pertaining to villages sometime this week. Based on the articles, it's better that villages and towns/municipalities be kept seperate somewhat. And try to make it more compact than Greek Dimos. El Greco (talk · contribs) 17:40, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


 * So, I added the village and municipality population fields to Infobox Greek Dimos. Hope that helps. It's better than just making a whole new infobox. Look at it and tell me how you like it. El Greco(talk) 01:01, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Mapping
I don't like this pale map. May i use the old one or even my own? how?--Dimorsitanos (talk) 11:00, 24 July 2008 (UTC)


 * No you can't use your own, that's the map provided. It's an SVG which is great for maps. El Greco(talk) 21:17, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

The colourful map was better. I use an Attica zoomed map at the greek wikipedia which is more informative.--Dimorsitanos (talk) 17:05, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

How may i add the cronological commune and municipal course? --Dimorsitanos (talk) 11:02, 24 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Not sure I follow you. El Greco(talk) 21:17, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I mean I want to add the date the commune was established and the date it was recognized as a municipality.--Dimorsitanos (talk) 17:05, 25 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay, I'll see what I can do. El Greco(talk) 15:29, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * How's the new update?
 * Fields: established_c (city established) & established_m (municipality established) El Greco(talk) 16:57, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

How can i use a costumized template? --Dimorsitanos (talk) 11:16, 24 July 2008 (UTC)


 * What do you need costumized? El Greco(talk) 21:17, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Merging into Infobox Settlement
The deletion debate for this template closed as 'no consensus', with some suggestions for improvements to Infobox Settlement, prior to re-nomination and merger. Anyone have any thoughts as to what would be necessary to achieve that? Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 13:20, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the only think we can take from this template is some coloring. -- Magioladitis (talk) 00:02, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
 * In the absence of other comments, would you be willing to do that, please? Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 13:40, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Substituted infobox
As a side effect of WP:CHECKWIKI, one of the reports generated a list that consists mainly of infoboxes on Greek settlements in the old format. I copied it to WikiProject Check Wikipedia/015, in case you are interested. Data is from March, some may have been converted since. -- User:Docu   04:27, 16 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I'll see what I can do. El Greco(talk) 15:37, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Merging redux
Further to the above, and these closing admin's comments, I hope to merge this template into Infobox settlement. Any thoughts? Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 21:03, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I would fully support this move, it is practically the same anyway in appearance and from a technical point of view settlement tmeplate is the way to go. We also need a bot to remove the very ugly other template see Is this infobox suitable for towns and villages that are not dimoi? above. They also need removing and replacing with standard. Himalayan 09:54, 6 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Merging is good. Plastikspork ―Œ (talk) 18:26, 6 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't really see the advantage of replacing the Greek infobox with a standard Infobox Settlement, but I'm not strongly against it. About the non-standard infoboxes: unfortunately they're not templates, so it's quite a job to find all these infoboxes. I checked all municipalities, and they all have the standard infobox now. But for villages within municipalities, there might still be hundreds of ugly infoboxes. Markussep Talk 19:54, 6 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Are these other templates being proposed for merger as well: Infobox German Bundesland, Infobox French commune, Infobox German location - three that come off the top of my head? Because otherwise this discussion is pointless. El Greco(talk) 21:23, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The discussion would not be pointless (see WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS), but yes, in due course, they will be proposed for merging, if compatible. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 22:17, 6 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Totally against this merging. This template fits perfectly in what is known as demos in Greece. It's also absolutely suitable for towns and villages that are not demoi. It's practical and very easy to use; I think that this is the point here, to make it easier for everyone to add an infobox which will be qualitative as well, and a merger with a rather complicated template doesn't serve this purpose. The "national" templates mentioned above are not proposed for merger (something that I would also be against to) and it's pointless to stop the "decentralization process" by merging this one. - Sthenel (talk) 15:21, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Digital coordinates
Does the infobox accept digital coordinates, and if so, how should I go about entering them. Most of the pages using this infobo tend to use the old system of minutes and seconds, which means that if you click through on the coordinates to see where the particular place is on Google Earth or Maps, you won't be taken to the precise location of the place (I'm talking about villages in Corinthia here).

I see that other infoboxes in use in other countries allow for more precise coordinates. Can we have this option here? I trie to change the infobox myself, but nothing happened.--Damac (talk) 09:28, 3 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I see the parameters lat_d and long_d mentioned in the documentation don't work, I'll remove them. The fastest option to get what you want is to add decimals to the minutes field (for instance lat_min = 45.8), that works. Markussep Talk 12:07, 3 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks! It was as easy as that. Kali chronia!--Damac (talk) 16:19, 3 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, it wasn't that simple after all. I tried adding decimals, only to find my village appear on the other side of the Peleponnese. How difficult would it be to add a decimal coordinate option to the existing infobox? --Damac (talk) 21:52, 4 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I made some minor changes. You should be able to specify coordinates in decimal format (without minutes) using lat_deg, lon_deg, without lat_min and lon_min.  Let me know if there are any problems. Plastikspork ―Œ (talk)  00:38, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Prefecture map
Hi, I just added an optional prefecture map. They're available for probably all municipalities in Greece, see commons. For the map to show you need to add the field "image_map". Just add the file name, the image is automatically formatted. The standard caption is "Location within the prefecture". If you want something else (e.g. for places other than municipalities), use the "map_caption" field. Don't leave a blank "map_caption" field, because there's no caption then. See Archanes and Acharnes for examples. Markussep Talk 10:05, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Picture
I think it is not necessary to include a limit for the width of the picture. No other infobox for any other city does it. For example, the picture of the article of Athens which is narrow looks ugly and small when the limit is used. I propose to delete that restriction and, after all, no other infobox of a greek municipality changes so significantly in order for such an austerity to be necessary. Dimboukas (talk) 17:11, 5 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Okay, but the version that you were reverting to also has hard coded value for the picture width? Would you like to add an option to override the default dimensions? Plastikspork ―Œ (talk)  20:01, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * How is that? Plastikspork ―Œ (talk) 20:07, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It is fine for me. Thanks! Dimboukas (talk) 22:49, 5 April 2010 (UTC)